Safiya Virji - Final Edit

[00:00:00] Fiona Day: Welcome to Transformational Thinking for Health Leaders. I'm Dr. Fiona Day, Master Practitioner Coach and Chartered Coaching Psychologist. This is a podcast that will help you meet your most complex leadership challenges and transform your perspectives, helping you to become a more effective and creative leader with a deeper understanding of yourself and your own world of work.

[00:00:29] Fiona Day: Dr. Safiya Virji is a GP, an NHS appraiser for GPs, and a training programme director for NHS England, leading the educational provision for GPs in training. She's also an Associate Dean of General Practice, leading on health equity training, and a senior clinical lecturer for primary care for undergraduate medical students at Queen Mary's University of London.

[00:00:53] Fiona Day: Safiya has particular interests in strategic leadership and inclusion. So welcome to Transformational [00:01:00] Thinking for Health Leaders, Safiya. 

[00:01:02] Safiya Virji: Hi, Fiona. Thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited to be here. It's a pleasure. 

[00:01:07] Fiona Day: Thank you so much. Safiya, you have multiple roles, but tell us if you would. A little bit about your career to date and how you got to where you are.

[00:01:16] Safiya Virji: I always knew from very early on that I wanted to be a doctor. And I think as the years went on, I realized that I needed the flexibility to pursue different interests within the arena of medicine. And I felt that general practice would give me the best opportunity to really get the most out of being a clinician.

[00:01:40] Safiya Virji: for your question. So I think once I had established that as soon as I qualified as a GP around 10 years ago, I was, very clear on my goals of wanting to make a difference, not just for my community, but for neighboring communities, both within [00:02:00] my country and outside, which I think is the core.

[00:02:03] Safiya Virji: Meaning of primary care. So I supplemented my medical degree with a degree in healthcare management and a master's in medical education. And all of my roles since then have been from the position of an educational lead. Ultimately trying to enhance the provision. of primary care education in the various aspects of of my life.

[00:02:29] Fiona Day: That's really interesting. Thank you. And I suppose I'm particularly curious about how you've been pretty clear about what you wanted to do, but also how you've then sort of additional qualifications in your field as well. Would you just say a little bit around about those qualifications, why you chose them, why they matter to you?

[00:02:46] Safiya Virji: I suppose I realized quite early on that having an interest alone sometimes will not get you to the job role that you want to do, because I think you need to enter with credibility. [00:03:00] So whilst I didn't know exactly what job I wanted to do, and I still don't know what job I might be doing in five or 10 years.

[00:03:08] Safiya Virji: But I was very clear on the area that I felt passionate about. And as I think everyone knows, when you go to work as as a leader it's a really difficult and complex job. So you do need to enjoy and feel passionate about what you're doing. So it was important for me to select either courses or degrees or accreditations.

[00:03:31] Safiya Virji: that I felt were aligned with my direction of travel and I do feel quite strongly that the roles that I have and the opportunities that I've had have definitely been enhanced through those qualifications. So I think if you can find something that is aligned with what you're passionate about in life, then it's worth pursuing that as early as possible, ideally.

[00:03:55] Fiona Day: Okay, great. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. So I suppose Now you really do have a, quite a [00:04:00] complex portfolio of roles that are all, I can see there's common threads that pull it all together. But yeah how do you organise your working life and your working weeks, Safiya, with all these, the multiple roles that you have?

[00:04:13] Safiya Virji: Yeah, I do have multiple walls. And as I mentioned a portfolio career was something that I wanted from early on, because I feel that when you want to be a leader, ultimately you want to make change. And I think change is usually best done when it's handled through multiple directions. And really, that's why I have this portfolio career.

[00:04:37] Safiya Virji: I think The main, tips or strategies that I found have been most beneficial is firstly recognizing your own personality and what your organisational skills are like. It's not for everyone and it can cause some people a lot of stress, but for those who are naturally quite well organised, I think organization is key.

[00:04:59] Safiya Virji: And the [00:05:00] second thing would be flexibility. I think it's naive when you get into senior positions to think I do that job on a Wednesday and that job on a Thursday, so I'll deal with those matters on a Wednesday and the other ones on a Thursday, because crises and difficulties occur every day of the week and sadly those crises don't recognize whether the day is aligned with your role.

[00:05:21] Safiya Virji: I think flexibility to say, okay, you know what, I probably will take an hour of every day just to make sure I'm tying up, any loose ends of those other roles. And it's give and take because the day that's allocated to that particular role may afford you that time to then give back to roles that you've otherwise taken from.

[00:05:39] Safiya Virji: So I think. Being flexible, being organised and naturally being able to finish off one thing and be okay to move on to another quite quickly is key. And I suppose I must have those qualities. I can't say I knew I had them, but when I started my portfolio career [00:06:00] and I realized that I was thriving.

[00:06:02] Safiya Virji: having those multiple roles and seeing how they all ultimately fed into, the one goal that I felt quite passionate about, enabled me to, flourish as a portfolio GP. So I would say for anyone who isn't sure, Whether they can do more than one role is, I think, just take some time to reflect on your own personality and your own characteristics and, go for something that complements them because it's good to enjoy what you do at the end of the 

[00:06:29] Fiona Day: day.

[00:06:30] Fiona Day: So something for you there about that the kind of the longer term goal that you had in mind, but these roles all complement each other, and feed off each other too, don't they? I suppose I'm particularly curious because you, I know you're involved in both undergraduate and postgraduate education and postgraduate training as well.

[00:06:47] Fiona Day: So I guess, what are you, what are the main differences between educating undergraduates and postgraduates? And then, so I was thinking about as a leader, are the skills that you need As a leader in both [00:07:00] of those contexts, are they the same? Are they different? 

[00:07:02] Safiya Virji: I naively at the start did not think there would be a massive amount of difference between undergraduate and postgraduate education.

[00:07:10] Safiya Virji: But I remember starting in postgraduate and thinking, okay, this is what education looks like in, in medical, in the medical sphere. And then starting undergraduate feeling like I'd had no experience in education whatsoever. So they are different. My perceptions are that with Undergraduate medical education.

[00:07:29] Safiya Virji: There's a strong focus on evidence based, there's a strong focus on educational theory, underpinning every activity that you do. And a lot of time is spent on innovation, doing new things, testing them, seeing if they work, and then writing them up for dissemination. Academia is a heavy part of undergraduate medical education.

[00:07:52] Safiya Virji: Postgraduate medical education. For me has certainly been the concept of being on the ground. So [00:08:00] really, what are the barriers and what's, what do we need to do today in our practice so that our doctors that are training to be GPs can successfully complete the program. What are the pressures that our trainees are facing?

[00:08:14] Safiya Virji: What are the pressures that our GP tutors are facing? And what are the pressures that our practices are facing? And what can we do to just make that work today so that we can get people through the system and scaffold our workforce? Because the goal here in, in all of my portfolio roles, and I'm sure for anyone who is in the medical profession, it's patient care, that's the bottom line.

[00:08:41] Safiya Virji: And so whilst we, we invested our medical students because, we see the future and we see that they will meet the patient's needs. We have trainees that are seeing patients today and we need those patients to be seen safely. And that means we need, practices that have the capacity and the resources and the doctors to [00:09:00] do that.

[00:09:00] Safiya Virji: So investing on things today on the ground is really where the focus of that postgraduate element is. And that. involves more kind of quality and coordination and, and just being ready to troubleshoot the day to day, practice issues, I 

[00:09:17] Fiona Day: think. So there's something there then in terms of the kind of pedagogy, is that the word for it?

[00:09:22] Fiona Day: The educational theory for undergraduates that's particularly. At the forefront of your mind, but by the time you're educating postgraduates, it's very much they're out there in the real world working with patients here and now today and quite a whole kind of systems approach that you need to have in place to enable them to successfully complete training in order to be able to be effective in delivering patient care.

[00:09:46] Fiona Day: Thank you for sharing that. And I guess in terms of, you as a leader, do you, are you drawing on the same skill set, different skills? So 

[00:09:53] Safiya Virji: despite the fact that both of the roles are very different and both of the roles bring different skills [00:10:00] out of you, I think to be a good leader actually requires the same characteristics.

[00:10:06] Safiya Virji: So I think being a good leader is able to take a more bird's eye view as to what it is. What's the end goal? What are we trying to achieve here? And then being able to share that with the people that you're working with, no matter whether they are, faculty at a medical school or whether they are, practice managers and GPs, but being able to share that vision and get everyone's buy in and to do it in an inclusive way so everyone feels that actually they're part of that community that you're trying to build.

[00:10:38] Safiya Virji: I think those are the key skills that leaders would need, irrespective of exactly what sector they would be working in. 

[00:10:46] Fiona Day: And how do you do that in reality then? What's your approach in terms of inclusion? I know that really matters to you and I can really hear that in your, what you were saying just there, but so in terms of, sharing tips for other listeners what do you do?

[00:10:59] Fiona Day: How would you [00:11:00] go about really being inclusive in how you create a vision and share it with other people? 

[00:11:05] Safiya Virji: Yeah I am passionate about inclusion. There was a lot of things I was passionate about, but I didn't realize that they came under the banner of inclusion until quite recently. And that's why last year I decided to become an accredited inclusivity trainer, because I wanted to be able to help people to offer the inclusive environment that they need.

[00:11:27] Safiya Virji: They want to offer, a lot of people want to be inclusive, but they're not entirely sure how and what that looks like. And I would summarize it as maybe just two or three key things. I think the first thing is to be nonjudgmental. So when someone says something to you, there is no need to, to pass judgment on it.

[00:11:49] Safiya Virji: Or if you observe something, there's not always need to pass judgment on it. Sometimes it can just be an event. So for example if somebody comes in late for a meeting, [00:12:00] they've come in late for a meeting and that is a fact. There is no need to then decide that was unprofessional or, that was, a negative thing because what happens is if we focus too much on that and the other person gets that impression Then they can sometimes withdraw from the situation thinking that perhaps it's not for them and actually if we want to grow as a society, we know that there are the more opinions we have, the more skills that we have, the more views that we have, we are likely to cover all basis and be the best that we can be.

[00:12:33] Safiya Virji: So we need that person there. So we can't really have them withdrawing over a situation where they came late. So I think not passing. Judgment, number one doesn't exclude those people. And also number two, gives a safe platform for them to perhaps explain why they had come late. And it might be, that they are actually undergoing, a very extensive personal situation, which maybe you could even help with that would even [00:13:00] prevent them from coming late, like changing a meeting time or something like that.

[00:13:04] Safiya Virji: So I think being nonjudgmental is key. And I think the second thing is to be compassionate. And what that means is to just have a think about what it might be like for you. For example, if you had a personal situation going on at home and you had a meeting time, which just was not gelling for that, how might you feel in the, in that situation and be pulled in so many different directions?

[00:13:28] Safiya Virji: So I think approaching it with compassion. And then just that reassurance to say, we will find a way where, people's needs are met. And I think if we just keep an open minded approach to say, nobody's going to be forced to do something that doesn't work for them, and just have that mindset, then then everybody who is in the role and in the meeting will be there in an informed way.

[00:13:54] Safiya Virji: And they will feel that they belong there. And usually I find that ends up in, in an an [00:14:00] atmosphere of inclusion. 

[00:14:01] Fiona Day: So you've formally trained in terms of being an inclusion trainer and, some of the strategies that you've been sharing there, I can really see how very values driven they are as well, but also they're, Some very tangible behaviors that, that we could use in those situations to help to build a more kind of inclusive culture and inclusive way of working.

[00:14:23] Fiona Day: Thank you. And I know you have other interests as well as as inclusion and you've had some global roles as well. Yeah. Would you tell us a little bit more about Your other interests, Safiya, 

[00:14:32] Safiya Virji: please. Yeah, I've always had an interest in the concept of inequality. So just on the whole, the concept of, some people having more and some people having less and, the different areas that can impact someone, be it in, housing or health or education.

[00:14:53] Safiya Virji: And I think exploring the international arena really helps to open your eyes [00:15:00] as to the extent of inequalities and the way that that they can present. I do a lot of work internationally. Some of it is voluntary and some of it is more formal. One of the methods that I engage internationally is by being a clinic lead for a charity, which delivers.

[00:15:20] Safiya Virji: primary healthcare provision in the Middle East to children that have been disadvantaged through war. And that position is also a leadership position and it's a multi stakeholder operation and it involves healthcare professionals from various disciplines and various cultural backgrounds that have come from different countries purely to deliver healthcare to this population for a short period of time.

[00:15:48] Safiya Virji: So this requires not only a lot of coordination to ensure that the patients are receiving good quality provision. But it's also about [00:16:00] thinking about the dynamics of the healthcare professionals that you have and what can you do to ensure that they feel that they belong in that team. And I strongly feel that in that sort of situation, it can be so easy to think, Oh, I feel so sorry for this country.

[00:16:17] Safiya Virji: I feel so sorry for these children. But actually. I feel this is a great opportunity for, reverse mentoring, where actually the healthcare professionals are learning just as much from the country and the survivors and the situations, and that is enhancing their growth just as much as the patients are receiving, this tangible medical care from the healthcare professionals.

[00:16:43] Safiya Virji: And I think I very much push that with my team to say this is, reciprocal learning. So always, be grateful for what you've received from this, rather than see it as that you gave up your time. And I think that attitude that I've worked really hard to embed has led [00:17:00] to, year on year.

[00:17:01] Safiya Virji: Having interest from various healthcare professionals and the clinic is 

[00:17:04] Fiona Day: thriving. That's wonderful to hear. And I guess it's very much a kind of fair exchange type basis. And I really like that kind of as a principle, generally, and I'm curious, Safiya how do you do this?

[00:17:14] Fiona Day: Do you go out there to work alongside people, or are you working remotely or a mixture of both? 

[00:17:19] Safiya Virji: So there's an element of groundwork that would be happening consistently, but my involvement is more of a kind of short shop. So it would be, for example, every year or twice a year leading a clinic for a few days where there would be international health care professionals that would be working within the clinic.

[00:17:39] Safiya Virji: So that particular program would be the part that I would lead on. 

[00:17:43] Fiona Day: Okay. And great. It's amazing to hear that you're doing that as well, and it sounds like you've been involved with them for quite some time as well. And I guess I'm just curious of all the things that you've done so far, like what you feel most proud of.

[00:17:57] Safiya Virji: I think the thing I'm most proud [00:18:00] of would be that I've made an informed decision to be in the roles that I'm in, and I'm very clear on how they align with my goals of what I want to see in terms of, inclusion. and equity, and improving communities. And because I've worked so hard at that, I feel that I am creating a society Where my children will hopefully feel confident about doing things that maybe other people aren't doing or going into arenas with confidence.

[00:18:35] Safiya Virji: Even if they're not, Entirely skilled. And I hope that I am, creating a world where. They feel that change is on their shoulders and that actually, if we sit and wait for, for the world we want to see I don't know whether we'll see it or whether our grandchildren will.

[00:18:53] Safiya Virji: And so I think the thing I'm most proud of is that whereas it's possible sometimes to come home [00:19:00] and feel guilty and think, have I worked too much and I haven't been there for my Children. I think on the whole, I feel quite comfortable that when I come home, I can tell my children what world I'm trying to build for them and that I expect them to take full advantage and ownership over a path that I am paving for them and I expect them to walk on that path and, do the things that perhaps weren't possible five or ten years ago.

[00:19:25] Safiya Virji: So I, I think that's probably what I'm most proud of. 

[00:19:28] Fiona Day: So something there around That kind of paying it forward, that future kind of legacy, isn't it? That kind of being a wise ancestor and laying the strong foundations for them, but also, in terms of, your own family and laying some pathways for them to move forward into the future.

[00:19:44] Fiona Day: And I love how you're so clear about what you want to do and where, why you're doing things and and it's so wonderful to hear that enthusiasm that really radiates from you for the work that you're doing and your commitment to it. And I'm curious then Safiya about the [00:20:00] future, I know you said earlier Oh, I don't know where I'll be in five years time, but I suppose I'm curious around your thoughts about the future and your career and where you might want to take things and the impact that you might want to have, the kind of the legacy.

[00:20:12] Fiona Day: Side of things. Would you share a little bit about that, please? 

[00:20:15] Safiya Virji: I think the most important key when you have to answer a question like that about where you're going to be is To ask yourself who you surround yourself with because actually these are the people that are going to help Shape where you're going to be in five years You've mentioned a couple of times that I am quite, articulate or clear about what my goals are You But actually I had feelings before they were goals and before that they were words and actually it was having people around me that helped me identify what those feelings were aligned with within the arena that I work in.

[00:20:54] Safiya Virji: And so in five years I believe that I will be continuing to follow my [00:21:00] passion and my direction and I'll be making informed decisions and I will be changing my roles and developing them. But I think The exact roles that I would be doing, I'm not sure about, but I hope that they will be evolving and dynamic.

[00:21:17] Safiya Virji: I'm somebody who doesn't like to be stagnant. So when I feel that I have gotten everything I can from a role and given everything that I can, my role is then to try and help somebody else to do that whilst I then move on. And I think that concept of kind of role modeling and identifying leaders very early on is a key part to me in five years feeling that I've continued to progress.

[00:21:42] Safiya Virji: And I hope that in five years I have built even more people and more support around me to help me to identify what those roles might be. So all I can say at this point is I hope in five years that I'm just as satisfied, passionate, [00:22:00] enthusiastic, and active in my, in, in achieving my goals and achieving what I want to see in society as I am now.

[00:22:08] Fiona Day: Thank you for sharing that. It's really inspiring. And I also love how you're thinking about your exit from particular roles and how you want to make sure that you've upskilled people around you and helped other people to learn and grow into their own roles as well so that you can.

[00:22:22] Fiona Day: move forward too. So Safiya, thank you. It's been wonderful chatting with you and hearing all about, you and your career and your multiple different portfolio roles and your leadership, and thank you ever so much for taking the time. 

[00:22:35] Safiya Virji: No, it's been really nice to talk to you and thank you for The questions that have encouraged me to think about, how I did get where I am and that I do need to get somewhere else in five 

[00:22:46] Fiona Day: years.

[00:22:46] Fiona Day: Thank you so much for being here with us today. If you've enjoyed this podcast and would like to find out more, head over to www. fionadayconsulting. co. uk and you'll receive three [00:23:00] hours of free CPD. The health career success program. When you sign up to my newsletter and there's loads of other resources to support you as a medical or public health leader on my website, too.

[00:23:11] Fiona Day: Thanks for listening.